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	<title>Comments on: Prove it to me</title>
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		<title>By: integgy</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>integgy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-52</guid>
		<description>SCVegan: Don&#039;t worry, I didn&#039;t take your post as anything other than exactly what it said. My questions were rhetorical, but I am looking for sources of medical studies, so I&#039;ve made note of your previous suggestions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SCVegan: Don&#8217;t worry, I didn&#8217;t take your post as anything other than exactly what it said. My questions were rhetorical, but I am looking for sources of medical studies, so I&#8217;ve made note of your previous suggestions.</p>
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		<title>By: scvegan</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>scvegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-50</guid>
		<description>AnnieMcPhee, I was not talking about any study in particular. If the blog author was genuinely looking for actual studies I was simply saying how she could obtain them. The first link you posted would be a published study, but that is only the abstract not the full text. To fully understand a study and scrutinize it you would need the full text.

The second link you posted is a blog post talking about a study that I myself am familiar with. The NIH-Women&#039;s Health study contained one major flaw, in that there was no low-fat diet group. A low fat diet is one that is no more than 10%  calories from fat. Having two groups, both near 30% calories from fat is not going to show a significant difference because there isn&#039;t one to begin with. If you read the full text you will see that the supposed &quot;low-fat&quot; group, which was just slightly lower in dietary fat than the control group, did just slightly better. The only logical conclusion is that a much greater reduction in dietary fat would give much greater results. 

I did not come here to debate, I was just trying to be helpful and I rather enjoyed the author&#039;s post. It&#039;s true that I am vegan, but could certainly stand to lose a few pounds ;o)
I don&#039;t really care about what other people eat or what their body size is. I do have a fondness for health-science and try to keep up with the latest news, so when i saw someone asking for studies I thought  would point the way.

Integgy, thanks for that definition. I am a fan of acceptance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AnnieMcPhee, I was not talking about any study in particular. If the blog author was genuinely looking for actual studies I was simply saying how she could obtain them. The first link you posted would be a published study, but that is only the abstract not the full text. To fully understand a study and scrutinize it you would need the full text.</p>
<p>The second link you posted is a blog post talking about a study that I myself am familiar with. The NIH-Women&#8217;s Health study contained one major flaw, in that there was no low-fat diet group. A low fat diet is one that is no more than 10%  calories from fat. Having two groups, both near 30% calories from fat is not going to show a significant difference because there isn&#8217;t one to begin with. If you read the full text you will see that the supposed &#8220;low-fat&#8221; group, which was just slightly lower in dietary fat than the control group, did just slightly better. The only logical conclusion is that a much greater reduction in dietary fat would give much greater results. </p>
<p>I did not come here to debate, I was just trying to be helpful and I rather enjoyed the author&#8217;s post. It&#8217;s true that I am vegan, but could certainly stand to lose a few pounds ;o)<br />
I don&#8217;t really care about what other people eat or what their body size is. I do have a fondness for health-science and try to keep up with the latest news, so when i saw someone asking for studies I thought  would point the way.</p>
<p>Integgy, thanks for that definition. I am a fan of acceptance.</p>
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		<title>By: AnnieMcPhee</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>AnnieMcPhee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 06:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-47</guid>
		<description>SCVegan (by the way, I&#039;ve come across quite a few fat, active, fit vegans - interesting, eh?) is this the kind of medical study you&#039;re talking about?

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/165/1/55

&#039;Cause these &quot;paradoxes&quot; are now so numerous they can&#039;t rightly be called paradoxes anymore.   If I were a media junkie I&#039;d say the jury is back out, but I&#039;m not a media junkie and I&#039;ll be maintaining that the jury is in fact in...and the result ain&#039;t that fat is killing people in droves, or that there&#039;s an &quot;epidemic&quot; (my God, definitions people!) or that &quot;healthy eating&quot; is anything more than preventing deficiencies and certainly not disease http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/junkfood-science-exclusive-big-one.html

If we&#039;re talking about peer-reviewed, randomized, clinically controlled studies and not press releases, of course.   Looks like FA wins on that score :)

Oh, and I think that sorta answers Mike too.  

Unless Mike would care to take on the issue of ENTIRE WINGS being built onto hospitals to deal with the deadly aftereffects of weight loss surgery.   Or the Ancel Keys starvation studies.   :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SCVegan (by the way, I&#8217;ve come across quite a few fat, active, fit vegans &#8211; interesting, eh?) is this the kind of medical study you&#8217;re talking about?</p>
<p><a href="http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/165/1/55" rel="nofollow">http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/165/1/55</a></p>
<p>&#8216;Cause these &#8220;paradoxes&#8221; are now so numerous they can&#8217;t rightly be called paradoxes anymore.   If I were a media junkie I&#8217;d say the jury is back out, but I&#8217;m not a media junkie and I&#8217;ll be maintaining that the jury is in fact in&#8230;and the result ain&#8217;t that fat is killing people in droves, or that there&#8217;s an &#8220;epidemic&#8221; (my God, definitions people!) or that &#8220;healthy eating&#8221; is anything more than preventing deficiencies and certainly not disease <a href="http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/junkfood-science-exclusive-big-one.html" rel="nofollow">http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2007/10/junkfood-science-exclusive-big-one.html</a></p>
<p>If we&#8217;re talking about peer-reviewed, randomized, clinically controlled studies and not press releases, of course.   Looks like FA wins on that score <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Oh, and I think that sorta answers Mike too.  </p>
<p>Unless Mike would care to take on the issue of ENTIRE WINGS being built onto hospitals to deal with the deadly aftereffects of weight loss surgery.   Or the Ancel Keys starvation studies.   <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: AnnieMcPhee</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>AnnieMcPhee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-46</guid>
		<description>Hm.  I didn&#039;t see Mick&#039;s comment when I made mine.   Well, Mick, this &quot;twit&quot; might have a few things to say to you.  But right now I have to get home from work, as I&#039;m putting in like 60 hours this week.  Because I&#039;m so fat and lazy and sick.  You know, like that.   I won&#039;t forget, though.   Even though I&#039;m a twit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hm.  I didn&#8217;t see Mick&#8217;s comment when I made mine.   Well, Mick, this &#8220;twit&#8221; might have a few things to say to you.  But right now I have to get home from work, as I&#8217;m putting in like 60 hours this week.  Because I&#8217;m so fat and lazy and sick.  You know, like that.   I won&#8217;t forget, though.   Even though I&#8217;m a twit.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 02:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-45</guid>
		<description>If you can find a good source of un-spun scientific studies, please do share with us. It would be a +10 happiness for all of humanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you can find a good source of un-spun scientific studies, please do share with us. It would be a +10 happiness for all of humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 01:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-42</guid>
		<description>Mick, quite frankly, you are an idiot. 

I&#039;m fat, AND I work in the medical field. I also am quite aware that being fat has NOTHING to do with sickness. EVERYBODY gets sick. 

I am in GOOD health, despite being OMG OBESE. 

Are you aware of the studies of the mortality rate of underweight individuals compared with overweight individuals? Guess who has the lower mortality rate? 

Are you aware of the studies that show excess fat actually HELPS patients survive disease? 

Did you know that individuals who constantly diet are actually in worse shape than fat individuals who embrace Heath at Every Size? 

I could go on and on, but I&#039;ll stop. 

Great blog, Lindsey! I hope you are doing well in school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mick, quite frankly, you are an idiot. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m fat, AND I work in the medical field. I also am quite aware that being fat has NOTHING to do with sickness. EVERYBODY gets sick. </p>
<p>I am in GOOD health, despite being OMG OBESE. </p>
<p>Are you aware of the studies of the mortality rate of underweight individuals compared with overweight individuals? Guess who has the lower mortality rate? </p>
<p>Are you aware of the studies that show excess fat actually HELPS patients survive disease? </p>
<p>Did you know that individuals who constantly diet are actually in worse shape than fat individuals who embrace Heath at Every Size? </p>
<p>I could go on and on, but I&#8217;ll stop. </p>
<p>Great blog, Lindsey! I hope you are doing well in school.</p>
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		<title>By: integgy</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>integgy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 01:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-41</guid>
		<description>SCVegan: It stands for Fat Acceptance.

Mick: I only approved your comment to say this: The things you listed are results of unhealthy eating, not of fat in and of itself. Everything you&#039;re referring to is based on the assumption that all fat people live unhealthy lifestyles, something which, while is true for some, is certainly not true for all. I&#039;d also recommend taking  a look at this post on Shapely Prose, which says it better than I certainly ever could:
http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/

Annie: Thanks for acknowledging that there are cases of fat being bad for you, in the more extreme ranges. I guess the reason why I say that fat itself is not what makes one unhealthy is because in both those cases, it is the weight of the fat, not the actual cells themselves. I&#039;m not trying to pick at you, because I do realize that, even though I didn&#039;t mention it in this entry, since it was supposed to be more about empowerment, those complications did float through my head while I was typing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SCVegan: It stands for Fat Acceptance.</p>
<p>Mick: I only approved your comment to say this: The things you listed are results of unhealthy eating, not of fat in and of itself. Everything you&#8217;re referring to is based on the assumption that all fat people live unhealthy lifestyles, something which, while is true for some, is certainly not true for all. I&#8217;d also recommend taking  a look at this post on Shapely Prose, which says it better than I certainly ever could:<br />
<a href="http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/" rel="nofollow">http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/</a></p>
<p>Annie: Thanks for acknowledging that there are cases of fat being bad for you, in the more extreme ranges. I guess the reason why I say that fat itself is not what makes one unhealthy is because in both those cases, it is the weight of the fat, not the actual cells themselves. I&#8217;m not trying to pick at you, because I do realize that, even though I didn&#8217;t mention it in this entry, since it was supposed to be more about empowerment, those complications did float through my head while I was typing it.</p>
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		<title>By: AnnieMcPhee</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>AnnieMcPhee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-40</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve only seen one thing that could be described as fat being directly dangerous.  It was on one of those Brookhaven Obesity Clinic shows (normally never watch that one!) and one of the young men had been there from 400 pounds up until he reached 700 (took 2 years I think - he wouldn&#039;t follow the extreme diet or the exercise regimen; just stayed in bed and kept ordering out for food - whether he was binging I can&#039;t say - to them all eating outside rabbit food is evil).  Anyway, what happened to him (at 700 something pounds) was that the very heavy weight of the fat on his upper chest was pressing down on his lungs so hard that he couldn&#039;t get any breath in, and he also couldn&#039;t expel the carbon dioxide.  So he was in serious respiratory distress, and from what they said it was genuinely just because of the fat, not any inherent lung problems.   However, I think 700+ pounds is pretty rare, I don&#039;t necessarily trust the show to be honest, there is no proof that dieting would have made him thin or even thin enough to prevent this, and - well who knows?  I don&#039;t know how it came out, either - they were having trouble transporting him to an ER but I stopped watching.   But that&#039;s the only case where I&#039;ve ever heard of that fat in and of itself could kill someone.

One other one I speculate is trying to deliver a baby when up in the higher ranges of weight, where your belly might also weigh a lot and be able to weigh down on the baby after the water is burst.   However, that would only be a problem if you were laying on your back, and that&#039;s a VERY bad position for ANYONE to give birth in.   It should be actively avoided by anyone attempting to give birth.   But I could see that causing a similar problem as with the lungs, if it were attempted.    

However, you&#039;re quite right - I&#039;ll stick with FA too :)  And the science is just coming up all over the place against the nonsense in the media, so it&#039;s just a matter of getting it out to the ignoramuses in the public and in the government and in the healthcare business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve only seen one thing that could be described as fat being directly dangerous.  It was on one of those Brookhaven Obesity Clinic shows (normally never watch that one!) and one of the young men had been there from 400 pounds up until he reached 700 (took 2 years I think &#8211; he wouldn&#8217;t follow the extreme diet or the exercise regimen; just stayed in bed and kept ordering out for food &#8211; whether he was binging I can&#8217;t say &#8211; to them all eating outside rabbit food is evil).  Anyway, what happened to him (at 700 something pounds) was that the very heavy weight of the fat on his upper chest was pressing down on his lungs so hard that he couldn&#8217;t get any breath in, and he also couldn&#8217;t expel the carbon dioxide.  So he was in serious respiratory distress, and from what they said it was genuinely just because of the fat, not any inherent lung problems.   However, I think 700+ pounds is pretty rare, I don&#8217;t necessarily trust the show to be honest, there is no proof that dieting would have made him thin or even thin enough to prevent this, and &#8211; well who knows?  I don&#8217;t know how it came out, either &#8211; they were having trouble transporting him to an ER but I stopped watching.   But that&#8217;s the only case where I&#8217;ve ever heard of that fat in and of itself could kill someone.</p>
<p>One other one I speculate is trying to deliver a baby when up in the higher ranges of weight, where your belly might also weigh a lot and be able to weigh down on the baby after the water is burst.   However, that would only be a problem if you were laying on your back, and that&#8217;s a VERY bad position for ANYONE to give birth in.   It should be actively avoided by anyone attempting to give birth.   But I could see that causing a similar problem as with the lungs, if it were attempted.    </p>
<p>However, you&#8217;re quite right &#8211; I&#8217;ll stick with FA too <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   And the science is just coming up all over the place against the nonsense in the media, so it&#8217;s just a matter of getting it out to the ignoramuses in the public and in the government and in the healthcare business.</p>
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		<title>By: Mick</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Mick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-39</guid>
		<description>If you truly want evidence of the effects of being overweight......... Walk to the library and pick up any book on pathophysiology - you can be assured that the content will be comprised of scientific data and not media hype. OR use the internet to look for research sites. Visit your nearest hospital and see what being fat can do to you, and how much more likely you are to die from complications if you get sick. I see patients every day who&#039;s recovery from surgery is hampered by their excess weight, or complications with diabetes, atherosclerosis, ischaemic heart disease.......... the list goes on. You can wake up and open your eyes to the harmful effects of being fat, OR........ keep your eyes blissfully closed and continue a stupid rant about &quot;no evidence that fat is bad for me&quot;. ....and the people who are essentially saying &quot;you go girl!&quot; what sort of twits are you to agree with her??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you truly want evidence of the effects of being overweight&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Walk to the library and pick up any book on pathophysiology &#8211; you can be assured that the content will be comprised of scientific data and not media hype. OR use the internet to look for research sites. Visit your nearest hospital and see what being fat can do to you, and how much more likely you are to die from complications if you get sick. I see patients every day who&#8217;s recovery from surgery is hampered by their excess weight, or complications with diabetes, atherosclerosis, ischaemic heart disease&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. the list goes on. You can wake up and open your eyes to the harmful effects of being fat, OR&#8230;&#8230;.. keep your eyes blissfully closed and continue a stupid rant about &#8220;no evidence that fat is bad for me&#8221;. &#8230;.and the people who are essentially saying &#8220;you go girl!&#8221; what sort of twits are you to agree with her??</p>
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		<title>By: scvegan</title>
		<link>http://integgy.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/prove-it-to-me/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>scvegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://integgy.wordpress.com/?p=31#comment-38</guid>
		<description>Are you literally asking for someone to provide you with published, peer-reviewed studies? You can research them yourself on PubMed, if your school has a medical library then you should be able to get access to the full articles. 

Good post, I especially like the references to gaining attribute points.

What is &quot;FA&quot; ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you literally asking for someone to provide you with published, peer-reviewed studies? You can research them yourself on PubMed, if your school has a medical library then you should be able to get access to the full articles. </p>
<p>Good post, I especially like the references to gaining attribute points.</p>
<p>What is &#8220;FA&#8221; ?</p>
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